Kids, anyone?

[elettaria]

finnygan is having an interesting discussion of motherhood, which sparked off this (poll beneath the cut).

General discussion most welcome. Do you think, for instance, that there are lots of men out there who get broody but feel that they should conceal it as it's Not What Manly Men Do? Any strong opinions on the number of people required to raise a child?

ETA: I just realised that I phrased the "Children?" question ambiguously. The first three options are not for how many children you would like, but how many you have already, so the answers from those three options should add up to 100%. Right now they add up to 55%, which is how I realised that I phrased the question wrong. Would people mind going back and changing that, if they can be bothered?

Generally, if I've left out suitable options, just tick "other" if I've given that and explain in the comments. No offence intended towards anyone, I did this poll fairly fast while relatively sleepy and just didn't think of all the possibilities.

The question on using assisted reproduction is only if you think you may actually need it. And oh blast, I forgot adoption. Ach, just tick "other" and chat about that in the comments. If you make a mistake in the poll, click on the poll number, then "fill out poll", and you can change your answers.

[Poll #1028754]

Comments

[king-laugh.livejournal.com]

I would consider adoption. I would not consider IVF - ethical squickiness. Plus I'm not entirely convinced that the baby would be as likely to be healthy as a natural one. I'm no expert, but it seems to me nature has devised, in the female body, a magnificent and gruelling assault course for sperm. Letting one skip it strikes me as madness.

Yes, I do think that men get broody, but most feel inclined to hide it. I hope so, anyway: I'd hate to be the only one. But then, I've never been one to let societies idea of "manliness" affect my behaviour and attitudes, and by and large think the world would be a far better place if people would let go of their ideas of "manly" and "womanly" behaviour.

I get stupidly broody, and sometimes it drives me mental! It's usually babies, but sometimes older children can set me off, or sometimes my cat! Or sometimes a chain-reaction of thought, whether it follows a sexual fantasy, or an idle thought about children, or a daydream of my future (complete with children), or the fear that I might never find the right woman - or that I might end up in a long-term relationship with a man, or that the "right woman" in other ways might not want kids or be able to have them. Yeah. Lots of fear.

Sometimes I find a children's book which is just so brilliant for kids it makes me want some just to share it with them. Or if I see someone (especially a man) doing good parenty things of which I aprove. Or, worse, parenty things of which I disaprove! That makes me think "I'd be a much better parent than that!"

So, yes. Clearly I am a woman trapped in a man's body, and must arrange the operation at once!

I didn't click the "can't afford it" or "not right time financially" buttons because poor people often make a damn fine job of being parents. The idea that they can't strikes me as a very unappealing, middle-class notion.

[elettaria.livejournal.com]

I'm glad you answered, I was thinking of you when people raised the "Do men get broody?" question. You're one of the two men I've known who's been strongly and consistently broody since a relatively young age.

Assisted reproduction isn't about skipping doing things the natural way, I'm not quite sure what you meant by "Letting one skip it strikes me as madness." The human reproductive system doesn't always work effectively, even with the best will in the world. My cousin, for instance, would be killed by a pregnancy. Nevertheless, she and her husband both have viable gametes and want children, so they're pursuing using a surrogate mother. Ignoring for the moment the ethical issues of creating multiple embryos, what's your objection to their following this route? What about a same-sex couple who want kids, what do you think they should do? Or transsexuals?

But then, I've never been one to let societies idea of "manliness" affect my behaviour and attitudes, and by and large think the world would be a far better place if people would let go of their ideas of "manly" and "womanly" behaviour.

Hear, hear!

I reckon that more men get broody than are letting on, but suspect that it's still fewer men than women. There seems to be a strong hormonal component with women, for starters, and all that socialisation is going to make some difference. Even if you take a man and a woman who both have no interest in having children whatsoever, the difference is that the woman is going to get hassled more about it.

So, yes. Clearly I am a woman trapped in a man's body, and must arrange the operation at once!

Joking aside (and please be careful with that subject, it's a delicate one and I know of at least one trans person reading my journal), gender reassignment surgery can't provide reproductive capability, it can't always even provide full sexual function (MTFs do better than FTMs here). A woman who is single but fertile and desperate for a baby can always arrange something, at worst being sneaky about unprotected one-night-stands (ethical issues with that, of course). A man in that situation just doesn't have the same choice, and I do feel for you there. Not to mention the risk that if you were to have kids in a relationship and the relationship were to break down, the kids usually end up with the mother. There are quite a lot of anti-fatherhood elements in our society.

I didn't click the "can't afford it" or "not right time financially" buttons because poor people often make a damn fine job of being parents. The idea that they can't strikes me as a very unappealing, middle-class notion.

It's nothing to do with class. It's to do with being at a stage in your life where you know that your income is less than you anticipate it to be in the future, career progression and so forth. I know perfectly well that at least some of the people answering this poll are barely making ends meet at the moment and absolutely could not afford the huge expense of raising a child, but should be earning more once their careers take off. I'd rather give my hypothetical children the best upbringing they can, and I can't see anything wrong with waiting five or ten years (depending on age and job) if you know your income is going to double or more, not to mention the question of savings. Look at, for instance, the difference between doing a teacher training course (grant of up to £4K a year) and earning the salary you'd get after a few years in teaching.

[eye-of-a-cat.livejournal.com]

Re: financial/career state - I should probably have pointed out above that while I'd say both would get in the way of me having children at this point in my life, career level is an other-than-financial issue. On this rung of the ladder, my life's just too unstable for me to be happy about the idea of kids right now - I could end up working anywhere in the country, and on temporary, short-term contracts. I have friends in the same position who do have children, and it adds an extra layer of complication to matters - moving is a much bigger issue when you have three school-age children and don't know where you'll be six months after you relocate anyway.

Financially, I couldn't have children now because I barely earn enough to feed myself. That said, I do think king_laugh has a point once you get above the poverty line. So long as my budget was enough to ensure my children were fed, clothed, sheltered and happy, it wouldn't bother me too much if my finances didn't stretch to Baby Gap clothes or M&S food or a house big enough that kids never had to share a room. I mean, if my parents had earned the wages they earn today when me and my brothers were young, I expect we'd have had quite a different childhood - no room-sharing, no hand-me-downs, holidays to Disneyland - but I don't think it would have been a better one, qualitatively speaking. I haven't suffered any long-term psychological trauma from having to wear my younger brother's outgrown school blazer for two years, anyway ;)

[elettaria.livejournal.com]

Yep, that's why I listed career and finances separately. I had your sort of position in mind. If you take an average of my friends, you'd get someone in their late twenties who still wasn't quite settled into a job that would pay enough to support a child, usually due to protracted education. Look at my best friend, who did four years of undergrad in languages, then worked at this and that for a couple of years, then did a law conversion course, then did a law traineeship, then got a law job but left after a year, and has just got another law job (in a field more suited to him this time). He'll be 30 in September and is only now getting to the point where he can start thinking about buying a property and settling down. He's had to go back to living with his parents at various points over the years, for instance when all his savings went into the cost of law school. Even had he been in a suitable relationship, I can't see a point during his twenties when he'd have been able to support a child.

And yes, I'm talking about not being able to support children when you're at the level where you're barely earning enough to feed yourself and don't know where you'll be working in two years' time, rather than fussing about being able to afford Baby Gap and food from M&S.