elettaria: (Gay penguins)
[livejournal.com profile] finnygan is having an interesting discussion of motherhood, which sparked off this (poll beneath the cut).

General discussion most welcome. Do you think, for instance, that there are lots of men out there who get broody but feel that they should conceal it as it's Not What Manly Men Do? Any strong opinions on the number of people required to raise a child?

ETA: I just realised that I phrased the "Children?" question ambiguously. The first three options are not for how many children you would like, but how many you have already, so the answers from those three options should add up to 100%. Right now they add up to 55%, which is how I realised that I phrased the question wrong. Would people mind going back and changing that, if they can be bothered?

Generally, if I've left out suitable options, just tick "other" if I've given that and explain in the comments. No offence intended towards anyone, I did this poll fairly fast while relatively sleepy and just didn't think of all the possibilities.

The question on using assisted reproduction is only if you think you may actually need it. And oh blast, I forgot adoption. Ach, just tick "other" and chat about that in the comments. If you make a mistake in the poll, click on the poll number, then "fill out poll", and you can change your answers.

[Poll #1028754]

Date: Friday, 27 July 2007 02:12 pm (UTC)From: [identity profile] finnygan.livejournal.com
Oh, bother. I AM registered as an organ donor, but I clicked the 'submit' button too quickly.

Date: Friday, 27 July 2007 02:14 pm (UTC)From: [identity profile] elettaria.livejournal.com
Click on the poll number, then click on "fill out poll" and change your answers.

Date: Friday, 27 July 2007 02:20 pm (UTC)From: [identity profile] finnygan.livejournal.com
Aha! :)

(Now that I think about it, I think that at the end of the day, I probably wouldn't be comfortable donating eggs - the idea of having children out there that you don't know and won't ever see is just too odd.)

Date: Friday, 27 July 2007 02:24 pm (UTC)From: [identity profile] elettaria.livejournal.com
I looked into it the other month, when I heard that my cousin's going to be using assisted reproduction (surrogate mother, she can't carry a child herself) and didn't know yet whether she'd need an egg donor. If I didn't have ME, and she did need an egg donor (turns out she hopefully won't), I'd do it, but unfortunately they still don't know whether I could pass the ME along, and I could react really badly to the hormonal treatment for egg donation. But that's my cousin whom I love enormously, I don't think I'd want to be donating to strangers either for the same reason as you.

Date: Friday, 27 July 2007 03:03 pm (UTC)From: [identity profile] cygna-hime.livejournal.com
You might as well mark my response to the last two questions as "Never actually thought about this/Am too young to be thinking about this". Because, um, the thought of seriously having kids in the near future makes me panic and flail my arms about.

Date: Friday, 27 July 2007 03:04 pm (UTC)From: [identity profile] garpu.livejournal.com
There's another reason for not doing assisted reproductive techniques...my religion is dead-set against them. It's probably the one thing I agree with in the "nuts and bolts" end of the teachings on human sexuality. (OK, I do agree with the big issues--sex should include love, it should be a total gift of self, etc.) I would never ever in a billion years tell another person what they should choose for their life, and I've known people who've gone through IVF. But for me personally, I wouldn't feel right choosing it. (Assuming for the moment that I wanted kids.)

Date: Friday, 27 July 2007 03:24 pm (UTC)From: [identity profile] eye-of-a-cat.livejournal.com
I usually want kids more after hearing Dire Warnings about what it'll do to your career as a female academic. (This is either masochism or defiance; I'm not sure...)

Date: Friday, 27 July 2007 06:59 pm (UTC)From: [identity profile] king-laugh.livejournal.com
I would consider adoption. I would not consider IVF - ethical squickiness. Plus I'm not entirely convinced that the baby would be as likely to be healthy as a natural one. I'm no expert, but it seems to me nature has devised, in the female body, a magnificent and gruelling assault course for sperm. Letting one skip it strikes me as madness.

Yes, I do think that men get broody, but most feel inclined to hide it. I hope so, anyway: I'd hate to be the only one. But then, I've never been one to let societies idea of "manliness" affect my behaviour and attitudes, and by and large think the world would be a far better place if people would let go of their ideas of "manly" and "womanly" behaviour.

I get stupidly broody, and sometimes it drives me mental! It's usually babies, but sometimes older children can set me off, or sometimes my cat! Or sometimes a chain-reaction of thought, whether it follows a sexual fantasy, or an idle thought about children, or a daydream of my future (complete with children), or the fear that I might never find the right woman - or that I might end up in a long-term relationship with a man, or that the "right woman" in other ways might not want kids or be able to have them. Yeah. Lots of fear.

Sometimes I find a children's book which is just so brilliant for kids it makes me want some just to share it with them. Or if I see someone (especially a man) doing good parenty things of which I aprove. Or, worse, parenty things of which I disaprove! That makes me think "I'd be a much better parent than that!"

So, yes. Clearly I am a woman trapped in a man's body, and must arrange the operation at once!

I didn't click the "can't afford it" or "not right time financially" buttons because poor people often make a damn fine job of being parents. The idea that they can't strikes me as a very unappealing, middle-class notion.

Date: Friday, 27 July 2007 07:58 pm (UTC)From: [identity profile] elettaria.livejournal.com
I'm glad you answered, I was thinking of you when people raised the "Do men get broody?" question. You're one of the two men I've known who's been strongly and consistently broody since a relatively young age.

Assisted reproduction isn't about skipping doing things the natural way, I'm not quite sure what you meant by "Letting one skip it strikes me as madness." The human reproductive system doesn't always work effectively, even with the best will in the world. My cousin, for instance, would be killed by a pregnancy. Nevertheless, she and her husband both have viable gametes and want children, so they're pursuing using a surrogate mother. Ignoring for the moment the ethical issues of creating multiple embryos, what's your objection to their following this route? What about a same-sex couple who want kids, what do you think they should do? Or transsexuals?

But then, I've never been one to let societies idea of "manliness" affect my behaviour and attitudes, and by and large think the world would be a far better place if people would let go of their ideas of "manly" and "womanly" behaviour.

Hear, hear!

I reckon that more men get broody than are letting on, but suspect that it's still fewer men than women. There seems to be a strong hormonal component with women, for starters, and all that socialisation is going to make some difference. Even if you take a man and a woman who both have no interest in having children whatsoever, the difference is that the woman is going to get hassled more about it.

So, yes. Clearly I am a woman trapped in a man's body, and must arrange the operation at once!

Joking aside (and please be careful with that subject, it's a delicate one and I know of at least one trans person reading my journal), gender reassignment surgery can't provide reproductive capability, it can't always even provide full sexual function (MTFs do better than FTMs here). A woman who is single but fertile and desperate for a baby can always arrange something, at worst being sneaky about unprotected one-night-stands (ethical issues with that, of course). A man in that situation just doesn't have the same choice, and I do feel for you there. Not to mention the risk that if you were to have kids in a relationship and the relationship were to break down, the kids usually end up with the mother. There are quite a lot of anti-fatherhood elements in our society.

I didn't click the "can't afford it" or "not right time financially" buttons because poor people often make a damn fine job of being parents. The idea that they can't strikes me as a very unappealing, middle-class notion.

It's nothing to do with class. It's to do with being at a stage in your life where you know that your income is less than you anticipate it to be in the future, career progression and so forth. I know perfectly well that at least some of the people answering this poll are barely making ends meet at the moment and absolutely could not afford the huge expense of raising a child, but should be earning more once their careers take off. I'd rather give my hypothetical children the best upbringing they can, and I can't see anything wrong with waiting five or ten years (depending on age and job) if you know your income is going to double or more, not to mention the question of savings. Look at, for instance, the difference between doing a teacher training course (grant of up to £4K a year) and earning the salary you'd get after a few years in teaching.

Date: Friday, 27 July 2007 10:46 pm (UTC)From: [identity profile] eye-of-a-cat.livejournal.com
Re: financial/career state - I should probably have pointed out above that while I'd say both would get in the way of me having children at this point in my life, career level is an other-than-financial issue. On this rung of the ladder, my life's just too unstable for me to be happy about the idea of kids right now - I could end up working anywhere in the country, and on temporary, short-term contracts. I have friends in the same position who do have children, and it adds an extra layer of complication to matters - moving is a much bigger issue when you have three school-age children and don't know where you'll be six months after you relocate anyway.

Financially, I couldn't have children now because I barely earn enough to feed myself. That said, I do think [livejournal.com profile] king_laugh has a point once you get above the poverty line. So long as my budget was enough to ensure my children were fed, clothed, sheltered and happy, it wouldn't bother me too much if my finances didn't stretch to Baby Gap clothes or M&S food or a house big enough that kids never had to share a room. I mean, if my parents had earned the wages they earn today when me and my brothers were young, I expect we'd have had quite a different childhood - no room-sharing, no hand-me-downs, holidays to Disneyland - but I don't think it would have been a better one, qualitatively speaking. I haven't suffered any long-term psychological trauma from having to wear my younger brother's outgrown school blazer for two years, anyway ;)

Date: Saturday, 28 July 2007 01:21 pm (UTC)From: [identity profile] elettaria.livejournal.com
Yep, that's why I listed career and finances separately. I had your sort of position in mind. If you take an average of my friends, you'd get someone in their late twenties who still wasn't quite settled into a job that would pay enough to support a child, usually due to protracted education. Look at my best friend, who did four years of undergrad in languages, then worked at this and that for a couple of years, then did a law conversion course, then did a law traineeship, then got a law job but left after a year, and has just got another law job (in a field more suited to him this time). He'll be 30 in September and is only now getting to the point where he can start thinking about buying a property and settling down. He's had to go back to living with his parents at various points over the years, for instance when all his savings went into the cost of law school. Even had he been in a suitable relationship, I can't see a point during his twenties when he'd have been able to support a child.

And yes, I'm talking about not being able to support children when you're at the level where you're barely earning enough to feed yourself and don't know where you'll be working in two years' time, rather than fussing about being able to afford Baby Gap and food from M&S.

Date: Friday, 27 July 2007 09:23 pm (UTC)From: [identity profile] nadyezhda.livejournal.com
baby is only 3 mo old... another in nine months might be a challenge! :)

Date: Friday, 27 July 2007 09:57 pm (UTC)From: [identity profile] elettaria.livejournal.com
There's a girl on [livejournal.com profile] fam who's opposed to birth control but doesn't think FAM is birth control so has been trying to use it. Unfortunately she didn't bother to learn how to use it, so she's now on her third pregnancy, aged 22. She got pregnant while breastfeeding a few months after the birth both times. Eep.

How's Danny doing?

Date: Saturday, 28 July 2007 03:25 pm (UTC)From: [identity profile] nadyezhda.livejournal.com
he's doing great! I need to do an update soon... this was my first week back at work; it left me absolutely exhausted last night. More soon.

Date: Saturday, 28 July 2007 01:45 am (UTC)From: [identity profile] littlemissalien.livejournal.com
Jamie is 4 weeks old, my stitches haven't even dissolved yet and I'm still broody and keep finding myself talking about "next time" and future children, lol!

With the EDS having Jamie young was a good thing - I won't have to race the clock whilst having more mobility issues. I did really well for 37 weeks of pregnancy then my body started to fail, so I can imagine if I was too much older it would have been worse. This way I can wait 5 years to have another and still only be 30. Not so good financially, but we're getting there. I may have to consider assisted reproduction with a surrogate Mother (with our own eggs/sperm), but we'll cross that bridge when we come to it. I'm not able to donate eggs as EDS is an autosomal dominant condition, so there's 50% chance of heritability. Luckily Jamie seems unaffected. It wasn't so good that he was unplanned, but he's wonderful and I wouldn't be without him now.

My partner was way more broody than me - he wanted kids and was thrilled when I told him I was pregnant (I was in tears, and not good ones!) and he was happy about the pregnancy and impending parenthood, whereas I've always been ambivalent and have been verging on postnatal depression until these past couple of days. I think this is because of him being older than me - 3 years may not be a lot, but I think that him at 25 wouldn't have really wanted kids right then either, whilst him at 28 couldn't wait.

Date: Saturday, 28 July 2007 12:44 pm (UTC)From: [identity profile] elettaria.livejournal.com
My cousin whom I mentioned above, the one who'll be using a host surrogate but her own eggs, has EDS and RSD (Reflex Sympathetic Dystrophy). You can see why I wasn't sure at first whether or not she'd need an egg donor, and I'm glad to hear your son didn't inherit the EDS. Apparently they'll be able to do genetic screening on her eggs, though, Israel's meant to be excellent for this sort of thing. She's 34, so they've not got that much time left.

I think broodiness kicks in at different times for different people. The two men I've known who are extremely broody have been like that since they were in their late teens. I'm 29 and not particularly broody, I have my moments but they're not that common. On the other hand, I am realising that I may not have much time left, considering that I'd want to be recovered from the ME to the point where I was definitely fit for childrearing (full or near-full recovery) for at least two years before risking having a child, and right now I've had the ME for ten years and it's never shown any sign of going away.

Date: Friday, 14 December 2007 04:48 pm (UTC)From: [identity profile] flynd.livejournal.com
[came over from lj_quilting]

I'm an organ donor, but I would not donate eggs because it's too complicated and hormonally destructive and painful and ugh! If I had sperm, sure, take it - bear my children, have fun - but eggs are too internal.
Just to clarify :o)

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