Judge to learned counsel: "What exactly are Brahms?"

[elettaria]

New CD of Brahms symphonies, Berlin Philharmoniker conducted by Karajan (the 60s recording, which is fabulous). Look at this:

Number of photos of Brahms: 0
Number of photos of Berlin Phil: 0
Number of photos of Karajan: 18

Admittedly, 11 of those are the last page of the booklet, and they're from other Karajan CDs. For Beethoven, you have Karajan posing next to a plane; for Grieg/Sibelius he is conducting on a boat poised at a perilous angle; and for Dvorak/Smetana, he is on a motorbike (but not conducting). All I can do is quote that old chestnut, taken from an excellent repository of music jokes here (though I've tidied the punctuation):

Karajan, Klemperer and Toscanini were talking one day. Apropos of nothing in particular, Klemperer said, "I am the greatest conductor the world has ever seen."
Toscanini replied immediately, "Oh, no you aren't. I'm the greatest conductor ever, God told me so himself!"
Karajan paused for a moment, and then said, "I never told you that."

ETA: Since I'm feeling rather proud of this, here's the result of a slightly tangential conversation that started up when I remarked that if you're going to plagiarise, Mr Brahms, pinching a bit of something incredibly famous such as Beethoven 9 is not clever. I then had a moan about Beethoven's never-ending cadences (friend of a friend of a friend's father reckoned that Beethoven just couldn't come). elfbystarlight, who can't read music, was naturally rather puzzled.

elettaria: A cadence is like saying "That's it," at the end of a story; or of a paragraph, in a smaller way. They're often used for ending phrases, and used importantly for ending movements. "That's it" is two words, right?
elfbystarlight: What's a movement? [Digression to explain what a movement is.]
elettaria: Beethoven does the equivalent of this:
That's it! That's it! That that that that's it, that's it, that's it, THAT'S IT, THAT'S - IT. It itty-itty-itty-itty-itty-IT.
(multiply by about ten)

In other news, I managed to get round the Gyle shopping centre in a wheelchair on Monday, and haven't been too shattered since. When borrowing the wheelchair from the information point, I enquired whether there was a curfew, since Shopmobility had wanted their wheelchairs back by 4.45. "Yes," the (fairly old and unattractive) security guard said, absolutely deadpan, "I want you in bed by seven." I don't think he had any idea what we'd said, and CM and I managed to get a discreet distance away before gettting the giggles. I decided not to say, "Best offer I've had in years," to the guy, just in case.

Comments

[starcat-jewel.livejournal.com]

Dropped by via metaquotes, to say that your description of Beethoven cadences is the funniest thing I've read all week. I can't wait to spring it on my boyfriend (who likes Beethoven rather better than I do, I'm a medieval/Renaissance/Baroque fan) when he gets home!

[elettaria.livejournal.com]

The scary thing is that it's the shortened version, too. If I really wrote down Beethoven cadences in words like that, it would go on for half a page. I've just checked the piano duet version, and the final cadences for the last movement of Beethoven 5 goes on for over a page.

[violacat.livejournal.com]

I don't see the Brahms/Beethoven 9 thing as plagiarism so much as homage (although there can be a fine line). Remember, Brahms was so intimidated by Beethoven that he refused to publish his first symphony until he was in his forties. The last movement of Schubert's Great Symphony in C (#7 or 8 or 9, depending) also has a quote from Beethoven 9, but nobody picks on Schumann.

And your version of a Beethoven cadence was very funny. :)

[elettaria.livejournal.com]

Oh, probably, I've not studied music properly past school (the outside course in first and second year of uni was a joke). I'm now remembering the way Shostakovich takes the piss out of, well, anything and everything in his fifteenth.

elfbystarlight has now listened to the final cadency bit of the last movement of Beethoven 5, and sees my point entirely. It goes on for about a minute, we actually checked.

[nonamoose.livejournal.com]

You're good! Even mother had a laugh at this when I was telling her about it... mother is not known for laughing out loud. She didn't know what a cadence was either so was able to completely take your point... mother is not known for her point taking either :-)

Hmmm, I can just see you and elfbystarlight sat there with your stopwatches lol.

[elettaria.livejournal.com]

Nah, it was just that we were both listening on our computersm which tell you how far in you are to each track. So I could direct her to go to 8 min in for the ending, or about 45 secs in for the bit that sounds like it should be in Star Wars.

[pinotnotnoir.livejournal.com]

Apparently Brahms' references to Beethoven were intended to be "declarations of allegiance" (sorry I can't find the exact quote from his letters just now) and he intended them to be obvious. Another example is the reference to the "Hammerklavier" Op 106, in the opening of his first piano sonata.

I was listening to Strauss' "Alpine Symphony" yesterday and marvelling at the way he uses the theme from the slow movement of Bruch's Violin Concerto. I don't know what he thought of Bruch though - maybe he just pinched that melody because it was a good tune and had suitably mountainous contours!

[darklily.livejournal.com]

Hello! I'm here via metaquotes (...some time after everyone else, but heigh-ho), and had to say that I love your description of Beethoven's cadences (which, coincidentally, I had to study as part of an Open University course unit on cadences mere weeks ago - I believe it was possibly the lengthiest example given in the entire unit...).
Would you mind awfully if I friended you...?

[elettaria.livejournal.com]

Equally belatedly, not at all, go right ahead. Love the icon.

I'm joining the OU next Feb, hopefully for a postgrad in Eng Lit, if they won't let me in for that then a few undergrad units first.

[azdesertrose.livejournal.com]

Talk of Janie-come-lately, but I've seen you about on longhair and metaquotes, and finally decided to check out your journal.

I have laughed myself absolutely breathless at the explanation of Beethoven's cadences, and the friend of a friend of a friend's father's explanation for said phenomena.

If I'm going to laugh this hard, I need to quit smoking, else I'll asphyxiate.

[lalumena.livejournal.com]

Can I borrow that little cadence bit to repost in my own journal? That's brilliant [and so true...].